Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Thu Apr 18 2013, 06:16PM

The following is one analysis by a league viewer:

1:13 -- patr0n spawns on red roof.
1:14 -- He faces south and hears footsteps to his right. It cannot be clear whether these footsteps are behind the red shed on the ledge or in the penthouse hallway one floor down. It cannot be clear whether these are friendly footsteps or enemy footsteps because the blue player is out of sight.
1:15 -- patr0n faces north and hears footsteps to his left. This pinpoints that someone is either behind the shed on the ledge or around the hallway one floor down.
1:17 -- The blue player moves east from the south side of the shed but is still not in patr0n's view.
1:18 -- patr0n shoots the corner of the shed wall before the blue player comes into view.
1:19 -- The blue player comes into view, engages patr0n and dies.
1:26 -- patr0n says "don't see my dot correclt."

This is classic wallhack behavior. Shoot first before identifying the location by sight, before identifying the player as enemy or friendly. Explain accidental wall shot as something not related to wallhacking.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Thu Apr 18 2013, 06:23PM

Further analysis by another league viewer:

When it's this tough to tell, I focus on intent. Two standout points on intent:

1) Blue flag carrier comes up front of blue and Devil is behind the wall. Moves to engage at perfect time with a slight tracking of carrier before visual confirmation. Then there is the attack on the blue player shortly after which is weak for wallhack but possible radar. After that makes two completely pointless engagements on the flag and then around the corner red brick. No one is at either location. There was no indication that an enemy would be present. What experienced player wastes ammo like that and gives away his position? The first two are suspicious and the last two are noobish. Put together it reeks of some assist being used and concealed.

2) A short time after, Devil spawns on red roof with a enemy behind the shed. I don't hear anything from the blue player. Devil moves to engage with intent and shoots the wall before enemy is visible.
Devil immediately jerks his aim away from the wall just as the player becomes visible and then reacquires and kills. He then makes a comment that his sights are off. To whom is this comment for? When have the sights in this game ever been off that you line up on a wall and shoot it? This behavior would seem to be extremely rare for an experienced player.

As for the comment on an aimbot, I am also suspicious. If it is used, it is sophisticated and has a weak lock. The end of the demo is the best example. Devil is on Doom roof and engages two enemies on red roof. There is a transition from the left to the right enemy that is odd and seems unnatural - very smooth movement with a strange correction at the end - almost like an arc. Shortly after, he engages a player jumping from doom to pond to doom to red. The last jump - doom to red - seems to have a weak lock mid flight as his aim follows the arc of the enemy pretty damn well. The problem is that the locks are in such short duration that I cannot consider them conclusive.

All said, I believe it's a concealed multi-hack.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Thu Apr 18 2013, 06:28PM

A third analysis by a non-FSK405 regular Superman player. He did not know that patr0n was Devil:

This is clearly an experienced player on this map and in UrT. Evidenced by several mature abilities such as:

Tapping no spamming
Nade cooking and dropping atop Blue
Advanced jump sequence to get to Red roof from exec
Situational awareness (and not, more on this later)
Some curve moves with soft landings

Now here is where I sense trickeration:

Several times there are clear instances of tracking through walls. It's subtle but it's there. I can elaborate further if you'd like
Aiming at entities too far to see with out scope
avoiding team mates from the same distance; somehow focusing on enemies only

In summary, I suspect this is an advanced player who has so finely tweaked his radar, wh, and possibly aim bot that he has avoided detection. Or at best, made it almost impossible to conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt. There are too many bizarre instances where other than typing that are hard to explain (where I think he may be 'scanning'. ) There are some hacks that you can set the FOV or 'range' before they activate. So they only kick in when enemies are within X range. I think this explains why he gets so many hits from so far away unscoped. When on blue roof shooting up to Red, it's not a stretch to place your crosshairs along the leading edge of red roof. What is tough to believe is how accurate and how many hits he gets. I think the aim bot activates only when his xhairs are super close to an enemy for XX milliseconds; otherwise he's a just a good shot. Kinda also explains the sr8 misses. The clearest sign is the WH - several places that he clearly tracks through walls.

Wish there were more demos to support my suspicions; I lack 100% conclusive evidence. But if I had to pick one or the other, I would ban on the clearest evidence - the WH.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Thu Apr 18 2013, 08:42PM

A fourth analysis by a league viewer:

There is a very obvious point in this demo when Blue flag carrier is going from Garage to blue roof and Devil is flying up from blue front arrow. He shoots at the flag carrier coming up from garage through the building. at no point did he view his travel path. He hones in on the shot with what 100% seems to me to be a clear wallhack. He has a keen sense for player position.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Thu Apr 18 2013, 08:44PM

A fifth analysis by a league viewer:

I watched this a dozen times at least, because I wanted certainty.

1) Early in demo, blue roof after killing red FC on smoke stack building: Blue guy on other side of building gave no precise tells of being there (As I reloaded, bandaged, stepped, I could hear ledge grab, one step, one breath), yet cross-hair prepared and take down. Shots following are pure BS rabbit trail shots to mislead specs
2) Red roof after spawn: This seems to be pure BS. I cannot seem to find anything that tells me the enemy is where the cross-hairs are pointing, and prefire? and then to attempt to justify it with game chat.
3) There are far too many fishy points for me. I had a [non-FSK405, Superman Regular] watch this, because he has keen hearing and vision. He mentioned the red-roof moment that the player makes some footstep sounds that are clear, but not enough to lead you directly to player position.

#2 is coup de gras. I'm inclined to call cheat on this demo.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
Tranc3r, Thu Apr 18 2013, 08:58PM

I'd like to point out something... (too bad there isn't any timestamp I could refer to), it was right when he spawned and did a walljump to the roof from exe room... normally. Really fishy how he decided to do a complete 90 degree turn and shoot the flag carrier, whom he's never seen while ignoring a blue player who is right in his view... very atypical behavior.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
BanMe, Thu Apr 18 2013, 09:42PM

Really fishy how he decided to do a complete 90 degree turn and shoot the flag carrier, whom he's never seen while ignoring a blue player who is right in his view... very atypical behavior.

Tranc3r

I could see him pretty clearly. You using 110?

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
BanMe, Thu Apr 18 2013, 10:01PM

I’m just going to address two of the comments quick

“When on blue roof shooting up to Red, it's not a stretch to place your crosshairs along the leading edge of red roof. What is tough to believe is how accurate and how many hits he gets. I think the aim bot activates only when his xhairs are super close to an enemy for XX milliseconds;”

It’s really not that hard to believe, you just have to take his monitor size into account. There’s no way in hell I could have done that on my old 17in monitor, everyone is just too small. On a larger monitor these shots are some of the easiest to do on the map. I’ve hardly played the last few months and I just jumped on the server and did it.



“What experienced player wastes ammo like that and gives away his position?”

I pre-fire a lot during matches personally, it’s just necessary against the high skill level you go against. If you’re at least “kindasorta” confident someone’s around that corner why the hell not? I don’t really do it on superman because it’s kind of pointless against the average player skill level on the server, but if you are used to doing it when you play other maps I can see why you’d keep doing it out of habit.

The whole shooting the shed and “don't see my dot correclt.” thing, I really don’t know what that’s about. He obviously knows he’s aimed on the wall since he’s doing it to hide his laser dot (maybe that’s what the comment is about?) so shooting doesn’t make sense. If you watch the rest of the demo there are a few accidental single shots at absolutely nothing. He could have been pressing down on his mouse1 with some slight finger pressure to get ready for the shot and pushed too hard. It was two shots, its not like he tried bursting the guy down with ten through a wall.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Fri Apr 19 2013, 02:28AM

due to the fact i'm not at home i'll have to comment your analyses on sunday.

If you review that demo as a public player:
- use a (good) headset
- crosshair: small dot // size: 10 // crosshairrgb: BanMe's secret lemongreen selfmade
- set cl_drawclock 1 (pretty important for spawntimes)
- use fov 110
- remember my ping is 150+
- I'm playing on 1920x1080 - 24" or higher - dunno right now
- sensitivity is 1 at 1000 dpi - so if you're in front of me you're dead, if you can jump over me you're lucky because mouseaccel is turned off in my actual cfg

Dumno what to add else - just reviewed it once when crazy uploaded it.It's never clever to moan about hacks if you get killed in a row and join spec then. Do a reconnect with an alias would be more efficient

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
Tranc3r, Fri Apr 19 2013, 03:05AM

Really fishy how he decided to do a complete 90 degree turn and shoot the flag carrier, whom he's never seen while ignoring a blue player who is right in his view... very atypical behavior.

Tranc3r

I could see him pretty clearly. You using 110?

BanMe

Mines @ 100. I stand corrected, thanks for clearing that BanMe.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Fri Apr 19 2013, 04:01AM

thanks for the possibility to let me explain my actions

The following is one analysis by a league viewer:

1:13 -- patr0n spawns on red roof.
1:14 -- He faces south and hears footsteps to his right. It cannot be clear whether these footsteps are behind the red shed on the ledge or in the penthouse hallway one floor down. It cannot be clear whether these are friendly footsteps or enemy footsteps because the blue player is out of sight.
1:15 -- patr0n faces north and hears footsteps to his left. This pinpoints that someone is either behind the shed on the ledge or around the hallway one floor down.
1:17 -- The blue player moves east from the south side of the shed but is still not in patr0n's view.
1:18 -- patr0n shoots the corner of the shed wall before the blue player comes into view.
1:19 -- The blue player comes into view, engages patr0n and dies.
1:26 -- patr0n says "don't see my dot correclt."

This is classic wallhack behavior. Shoot first before identifying the location by sight, before identifying the player as enemy or friendly. Explain accidental wall shot as something not related to wallhacking.

theSheilaDivine

You can hear clearly that the enemy is on top of the roof and walking to the corner where I will see him. I aimed on the wall before to be sure where my crosshair is and to "follow" the enemy via sound. It was a simple preshot to the corner (haven't hit it that good but it was close) and the timing wasn't that bad. I am the 150+ ping player, I can shoot through corners. If you play on a server with high ping and low ping players, remember that the hitboxes are different and messed up. In that short demos I've preshoted many times - sometimes with success and sometimes not. Like BanMe said: Why should't I do it if it could help me..

Further analysis by another league viewer:

When it's this tough to tell, I focus on intent. Two standout points on intent:

1) Blue flag carrier comes up front of blue and Devil is behind the wall. Moves to engage at perfect time with a slight tracking of carrier before visual confirmation. Then there is the attack on the blue player shortly after which is weak for wallhack but possible radar. After that makes two completely pointless engagements on the flag and then around the corner red brick. No one is at either location. There was no indication that an enemy would be present. What experienced player wastes ammo like that and gives away his position? The first two are suspicious and the last two are noobish. Put together it reeks of some assist being used and concealed.

2) A short time after, Devil spawns on red roof with a enemy behind the shed. I don't hear anything from the blue player. Devil moves to engage with intent and shoots the wall before enemy is visible.
Devil immediately jerks his aim away from the wall just as the player becomes visible and then reacquires and kills. He then makes a comment that his sights are off. To whom is this comment for? When have the sights in this game ever been off that you line up on a wall and shoot it? This behavior would seem to be extremely rare for an experienced player.

As for the comment on an aimbot, I am also suspicious. If it is used, it is sophisticated and has a weak lock. The end of the demo is the best example. Devil is on Doom roof and engages two enemies on red roof. There is a transition from the left to the right enemy that is odd and seems unnatural - very smooth movement with a strange correction at the end - almost like an arc. Shortly after, he engages a player jumping from doom to pond to doom to red. The last jump - doom to red - seems to have a weak lock mid flight as his aim follows the arc of the enemy pretty damn well. The problem is that the locks are in such short duration that I cannot consider them conclusive.

All said, I believe it's a concealed multi-hack.

theSheilaDivine

no offense - but you need a new headset.

1) You see in this part that my ping is pretty messed up. While playing I am directly on the enemy. When he comes up I kill him and hear the medic of the other one so I kill him as well. Then I heard a footstep but couldn't say from where directly so I set preshots at two corners. It's not noobish, you have to do this in higher divisions.

For comparison BanMe played in the same league with me in division 4 and 6 and does those preshots. I've played in division 1 and 1 the last seasons and will start in 1 again even I've been "inactive" for one season.

@ BanMe: My trigger is pretty sensitive, that's correct

citation BanMe:
"
I’m just going to address two of the comments quick

“When on blue roof shooting up to Red, it's not a stretch to place your crosshairs along the leading edge of red roof. What is tough to believe is how accurate and how many hits he gets. I think the aim bot activates only when his xhairs are super close to an enemy for XX milliseconds;”

It’s really not that hard to believe, you just have to take his monitor size into account. There’s no way in hell I could have done that on my old 17in monitor, everyone is just too small. On a larger monitor these shots are some of the easiest to do on the map. I’ve hardly played the last few months and I just jumped on the server and did it.



“What experienced player wastes ammo like that and gives away his position?”

I pre-fire a lot during matches personally, it’s just necessary against the high skill level you go against. If you’re at least “kindasorta” confident someone’s around that corner why the hell not? I don’t really do it on superman because it’s kind of pointless against the average player skill level on the server, but if you are used to doing it when you play other maps I can see why you’d keep doing it out of habit.

The whole shooting the shed and “don't see my dot correclt.” thing, I really don’t know what that’s about. He obviously knows he’s aimed on the wall since he’s doing it to hide his laser dot (maybe that’s what the comment is about?) so shooting doesn’t make sense. If you watch the rest of the demo there are a few accidental single shots at absolutely nothing. He could have been pressing down on his mouse1 with some slight finger pressure to get ready for the shot and pushed too hard. It was two shots, its not like he tried bursting the guy down with ten through a wall. "


2) Like said, you should play with a working headset. You can spot the enemy easily by sound. I wrote this to Crazy Assassin who went to spec a few seconds before. I needed too long to kill that enemy. 15 bullets for only one enemy in short range are too much. Before the demo was recorded I had multiple times problems with killing enemies in the air.
Try this:
- crosshair: small dot - size 10
- crosshairrgb: cg_crosshairRGB "0.498 1 0 1"
Sorry if you wanted to keep it for your own Sally. My brightness ingame is set that I can see on dark maps like uptown or casa perfectly. Superman is just too bright. My config is a league config and not a pub cfg.

Your accuse for aimbot:
/sensitivity 0.98
dpi 1000
I know that many of you guys are high sens players but if you'ld use a lower sensitivity you could aim more accurate.
Just do singleshots and aim

A third analysis by a non-FSK405 regular Superman player. He did not know that patr0n was Devil:

This is clearly an experienced player on this map and in UrT. Evidenced by several mature abilities such as:

Tapping no spamming
Nade cooking and dropping atop Blue
Advanced jump sequence to get to Red roof from exec
Situational awareness (and not, more on this later)
Some curve moves with soft landings

Now here is where I sense trickeration:

Several times there are clear instances of tracking through walls. It's subtle but it's there. I can elaborate further if you'd like
Aiming at entities too far to see with out scope
avoiding team mates from the same distance; somehow focusing on enemies only

In summary, I suspect this is an advanced player who has so finely tweaked his radar, wh, and possibly aim bot that he has avoided detection. Or at best, made it almost impossible to conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt. There are too many bizarre instances where other than typing that are hard to explain (where I think he may be 'scanning'. ) There are some hacks that you can set the FOV or 'range' before they activate. So they only kick in when enemies are within X range. I think this explains why he gets so many hits from so far away unscoped. When on blue roof shooting up to Red, it's not a stretch to place your crosshairs along the leading edge of red roof. What is tough to believe is how accurate and how many hits he gets. I think the aim bot activates only when his xhairs are super close to an enemy for XX milliseconds; otherwise he's a just a good shot. Kinda also explains the sr8 misses. The clearest sign is the WH - several places that he clearly tracks through walls.

Wish there were more demos to support my suspicions; I lack 100% conclusive evidence. But if I had to pick one or the other, I would ban on the clearest evidence - the WH.

theSheilaDivine

Due to the fact he haven't named proper actions I just have to say that I'm playing on a 24inch monitor and the display resolution is set to 1920x1080.
You can seperate enemies from teammates with minimap, names above the players and ways they are using.
Some of you guys remember me as a great sr8 player. I was used to the sr8 because I was the sr8 player in my clans. The last two seasons I've been playing automatic weapons to become more experienced with it. My old sensitivity was dpi 600 sensitivity 18.
It's just way harder to "snapp" with the sr8 so I'm missing a few shots as well. My Sr8-crosshair is a dot as well in green color. I have the same problems with aiming like with the automatic weapons.

A fourth analysis by a league viewer:

There is a very obvious point in this demo when Blue flag carrier is going from Garage to blue roof and Devil is flying up from blue front arrow. He shoots at the flag carrier coming up from garage through the building. at no point did he view his travel path. He hones in on the shot with what 100% seems to me to be a clear wallhack. He has a keen sense for player position.

theSheilaDivine

If you watch it with r_shownormals 1 you would see that I wasn't even at the enemy when I've shot. I just failed the correct aiming due to the low sensitvity and hoped I'ld get him while spraying in this direction. Also use fov 110 and you see him early. I guessed that the flagcarrier wanted to reach his flag because I thought we are playing ctf so I knew his future way he was using. The sensitivity is made for custom league maps. Superman is much bigger and I have to move the mouse really really fast.

A fifth analysis by a league viewer:

I watched this a dozen times at least, because I wanted certainty.

1) Early in demo, blue roof after killing red FC on smoke stack building: Blue guy on other side of building gave no precise tells of being there (As I reloaded, bandaged, stepped, I could hear ledge grab, one step, one breath), yet cross-hair prepared and take down. Shots following are pure BS rabbit trail shots to mislead specs
2) Red roof after spawn: This seems to be pure BS. I cannot seem to find anything that tells me the enemy is where the cross-hairs are pointing, and prefire? and then to attempt to justify it with game chat.
3) There are far too many fishy points for me. I had a [non-FSK405, Superman Regular] watch this, because he has keen hearing and vision. He mentioned the red-roof moment that the player makes some footstep sounds that are clear, but not enough to lead you directly to player position.

#2 is coup de gras. I'm inclined to call cheat on this demo.

theSheilaDivine

1) those are called preshots for the incoming enemy. Like said above I wasn't able to hear his position due to reloading and medicing but I've heard him.

2) I explained it above as well. You are able to hear the enemy nearly perfectly that I know when he will show up.
3) There are enough sounds - I guess you need a new headset as well.



I hope I could help you with the explanations. My brother let me on his computer at home so I've been able to review that demo. Even with a shitty headset ( Thermaltake Tt-eSports Shock ) I was able to hear nearly everything I've heard ingame.
I just see one problem:
- I am a highpinger
- some of you forgot to review the demo with headset or have a really shitty headset.
- some of you are playing with a low field of view
- some of you have never played in a high division or it was years ago and don't know what a preshot is for
- If you don't believe me the aiming issues try it on the crosshairrgb above with small dor at size ten
- cl_drawclock 1 for spawning enemies

I don't want to attack anybody with this post and I don't want to say you are doing a bad job. I just think that some are using the wrong config for reviewing a demo and aren't using a headset.

Use the settings i gaved you in this post and you'll see that aiming that accurate is easy as hell if you are used to.
Since regular players like BanMe, MrTinker, CD, ... , aren't playing on the server anymore or not that often the server went nearly to a "noob only" server so if you see experienced players you'll be surprised maybe.
If you've watched the demo with my settings and a headset you'll see that all suspicous adctions can be explained there.
Dankrider: "Is this true are willing to confess to trying a hack?" I said I'm not cheating and tried to explain you guys how I acted how, when.

Months ago I've pm'ed BoogieKnight that I can help him with reviewing unclear demos because I'm really experienced in reviewing demos. I've got the correct settings as well.

If you have other questions, just ask.
Soz for the shitty english

cheers
DeviL

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DankRider, Fri Apr 19 2013, 08:17AM

Please note devil is from Germany and his English may be interpreted. Try to focus on the facts.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Fri Apr 19 2013, 08:19AM

Like I said before:
"I don't want to attack anybody with this post and I don't want to say you are doing a bad job."
and
"Soz for the shitty english"
and
"I'm not cheating"

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Fri Apr 19 2013, 09:31AM

So let me understand:

You acknowledge that you said "Don't see my dot correct" because you knew Crazy was demoing you?

Are you also saying you knew when the player behind the shed was going to step out because of the footsteps? The original analysis on this thread already noticed the noise.

But how did you know it was a blue player? Why couldn't it have been a red player? You prefire in timing with the movement of the blue player when he is out of sight and as he moves into view. You cannot know this person is blue. Shownormals demonstrates this:

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Fri Apr 19 2013, 09:52AM

I see that you're still not using my crosshairrgb and my crosshair.

"But how did you know it was a blue player? Why couldn't it have been a red player? You prefire in timing with the movemnt of the blue player when he is out of sight and as he moves into view. Shownormals demonstrates this:"

Why I know it isn't a friend? minimap - Check your screenshots - there is no friend next to me.

"Are you also saying you knew when the player behind the shed was going to step out because of the footsteps? The original analysis on this thread already noticed the noise."

You can locate the enemy nearly pefectly by sound. The shownormals only show that the preshot was too early - if I could have seen him I would have shot a few moments later.
Actually the preshot wasn't helping me because I haven't shot when he appears, I've shot a few moments before. I can't say when he will appear I just can say where he is quietly accurate. Then I have to guess if he will appear or not. I decided to shoot. It's not "noise" that you can't locate - those steps were loud foodsteps that "showed by listening" where the players is.

I'll post a video on sunday of a known german high division player where he shows that he is able to follow players throught walls via sound through half of maps like casa. You can here nearly everything everywhere on Urban Terror.

Are you guys playing without headsets?

"You acknowledge that you said "Don't see my dot correct" because you knew Crazy was demoing you?"

I remember him or somebody else accusing me a few mins or seconds before, then he went spec. I was pretty sure he is watching me so i thought it is friendly to talk to him when he is watching me. Crazy A demoes me everytime if I'm ingame or he likes joining spec for fun when I appear.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Fri Apr 19 2013, 09:55AM

To clarify, your eyes were watching the minimap and your ears told you when and where to shoot?

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Fri Apr 19 2013, 10:03AM

You always should have an eye on the minimap for grenades, preshots, binds, etc
And ofcourse you have to listen to noise that enemies are doing.
That's what you have to do if you want to play in high divisions.

You can put the minimap in the middle of the display, so it's next to your crosshair. If the minimap is too far away from your crosshair, this would help you.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
XsmoKer, Fri Apr 19 2013, 10:05AM

don't we all look at the minimap.. ? especially when it's not chaotic.. looks like there were only a few players on the server.. you can hear everything.. and see your players on the minimap..

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
XsmoKer, Fri Apr 19 2013, 10:06AM

downloading urt now..

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
XsmoKer, Fri Apr 19 2013, 10:15AM

nevermind

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
XsmoKer, Fri Apr 19 2013, 10:16AM

sorry not appropriate

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
XsmoKer, Fri Apr 19 2013, 10:17AM

19mins to URT

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Fri Apr 19 2013, 10:28AM

The following are my two clans:
- Gentlemen's Club, also known as: sir. ( now: rush ) // CTF
- Highend-Gaming // TS

Sir. reached position 2 in first CTF division.
Highend-Gaming reached 1. position in second division.



& the post from the official german urban terror community that wanted to see me in the nationsteam:
http://www.iourbanterror.de/punbb/topic2226-nationalteam-lineup.html

I'm able to play with sound, brain & map-knowledge.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
XsmoKer, Fri Apr 19 2013, 12:56PM

I can't find a superman server to download the map.. is fsk down?

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
BanMe, Fri Apr 19 2013, 12:59PM

But how did you know it was a blue player? Why couldn't it have been a red player? You prefire in timing with the movement of the blue player when he is out of sight and as he moves into view. You cannot know this person is blue. Shownormals demonstrates this:

theSheilaDivine

Multiple things in game show that it would be a blue player guaranteed. DeviL only has two teammates when this is going on. One of them is dead so he only has to keep track of one other player.

Visual:
I you look at the mini-map his only alive teammate is down by the highway.
When he spawns there is no flag, his teammate returns it so it comes back.
There is a laser dot visible for almost this entire time so even if you didn't hear the guy its pretty obvious someone is around that corner.
Your mini-map arrow size is massive and obstructs the view of the entire roof. If it was a teammate you wouldn't know because of that reason alone.

Audible:
You can hear footsteps on the roof (other than DeviL's)
Flag return sound makes it obvious his only alive teammate is not on the roof with him.


Here's a video of it recorded at /timescale .1

You can hear the other player from the start of the video multiple times. You can also see the blue players laser whipping around like crazy out of the corner of your eye even if you are staring at your sight.



I think the major part of this that everyone is freaking out about is the fact that he hit the wall. His crosshair was off by maybe 4-5 pixels at most on my monitor. He only hit the very corner of the wall with one bullet out of the two he fired. Go try aiming close to a corner while strafing, your aim moves around some in relation to where you want it to be.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
rabbit, Fri Apr 19 2013, 01:22PM

I can't find a superman server to download the map.. is fsk down?

XsmoKer

do /connect sm.fsk405.com . the ingame server browser is a little buggy

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Fri Apr 19 2013, 01:48PM

It is nice to read that you understand how to play that game Sally.
I have to explain that I'm using the minimap, you have to tell players that they should use fov 110.

I just would like to know what you think about that demo.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
Boogie Knight, Fri Apr 19 2013, 07:16PM

I use sensitivity .15 and cl_mouseAccel .35

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
XsmoKer, Fri Apr 19 2013, 10:51PM

I don't see how you can ban him for the spots that you are looking at.. I hear the guys footsteps right away with my headset.. I would ban him for hitting the guys at the top of red with a LR.. but what do i know.. seems like Keeper and Civil used to be able to make shots like that easy too.. I just can't.. I'll shut up now.. but I finally saw it.. X

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 03:28AM

what means that .15? is that 0.15?
I'm too lazy to get used to mouseaccel

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
zimzalabing, Sat Apr 20 2013, 07:45AM

I thought you were a league player and an expert at urt ... you don't know .15 is 0.15 , I guess that must not be new league stuff ..

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 08:21AM

in germany you call it sensitivity 0.15 and timescale 0.1 and not .15
if I post commands of urt, I post it how they are used in urt

dont get what that bs comment was for.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
zimzalabing, Sat Apr 20 2013, 08:46AM

o silly me german urt , is different than american urt .. now i understand

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 09:02AM

seems so if you're able to omit numbers in commands.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
zimzalabing, Sat Apr 20 2013, 09:27AM

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 09:30AM

http://i.imgur.com/X3MVHVN.jpg

you can write nearly everything in it - if it will work is the other question

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
zimzalabing, Sat Apr 20 2013, 09:36AM

it works for me... but what do i know.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 09:39AM

That you've started posting non relevant stuff about that demo or my gameplay even if Dank asked to stay by the facts?

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
zimzalabing, Sat Apr 20 2013, 09:41AM

what means that .15? is that 0.15?
I'm too lazy to get used to mouseaccel

DeviL

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 09:48AM

And instead of answering that question directly you've decided to write "bs".
Like it would be relevant to know .15 is 0.15
I have no problem to learn something new, that's why I was asking

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 10:30AM

It seems like every action that was named in that demo looking suspicious could be explained by me and other regulars like BanMe or XSmoker as well.
Every action could be explained by sound, steady aiming and cfg settings.

Is there anything else to explain from my side?

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Sat Apr 20 2013, 10:31AM

This discussion is for Devil's demo, not a pissing contest, not an argument about zeroes and decimal points, not a place to brag about league status.

Since I've offered to manage this thread, I'll lock it at the next moment we move away from the demo again. This is an analysis of points, not a circus.

Devil, it doesn't help your case one bit to antagonize other players, to brag about your superiority in Urban Terror or to belittle how poor your competition on the Superman server is. If BanMe is your only competition, and BanMe rarely plays Superman, then there's no point in even talking about the demo.

Your ethos depends on the points in the demo, that's it. Too many excellent players have been caught cheating. It doesn't matter where they come from, how they have played or what tournaments they've won. Urban Terror settings are irrelevant to the discussion unless they pinpoint a precise counterargument to a moment in the demo.

You, Devil, make a mistake to believe that this is being brushed aside by amateurs. Players are wasting hours of their time on this forum, on the demo and on TS discussing it. We all have headsets. We all have giant monitors. And we'd all rather be doing something else.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Sat Apr 20 2013, 10:33AM

Yes, there is more to discuss.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 10:36AM

So it would be nice if you give me that actions or questionable scenes and I try to help you to understand my behaviour.

I just gaved you guys my settings like crosshairrgb and crosshair because they are relevant why I'm aiming a few times and edges and walls even there are no enemies next to me

I appreciate that you've opened a thread for that and I know that there are more important things than reviewing demo for demo. I'm headadmin of two UAA servers as well and have to watch multiple demos a day.

I've just got the feeling that my explanations get ignored because they are explaining everything that got said before in the analysis

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
Boogie Knight, Sat Apr 20 2013, 12:10PM

BanMe...you mention the laser dot, but I only see it visible on the glass sky light. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that it's from an enemy in exec?

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 12:13PM

this would look different I guess but I'm not sure and I don't want to connect to the server to try it.

The sound of the foodsteps came from red roof so why should the laser come from exec?

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
Boogie Knight, Sat Apr 20 2013, 12:23PM

BanMe...you mention the laser dot, but I only see it visible on the glass sky light. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that it's from an enemy in exec?

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Sat Apr 20 2013, 12:59PM

Conclusions on the shed incident:

The original analysis indicated the noise behind the shed of a player. Devil quickly pointed out he'd established this player as an enemy by referencing the minimap. The player's laser can be seen on the roof window and roof floor before the player appears; however, this point was identified publicly by BanMe not Devil. Devil has made it clear that he noticed this player by sound, not sight. So we'll move on with that.

Footsteps can be heard on the ledge behind the shed at the first moments when Devil spawns; however, from the moment before the pre-fire until after the two players engage each other, only one light footstep can be heard when the player is on the roof near the door behind the shed, and it's highly muffled by the wind noise. There is no indication what direction the blue player was taking at that distance behind the shed. And whether the blue player was moving left or right, either move would be lateral to Devil, not closer or farther away. Gauging footstep noise in this position, at that distance is the most unlikely reason to pre-fire. Messing around, accidental misfire or just bad luck are better reasons, but Devil sticks with sound.

He makes two points regarding sound:
1. those are called preshots for the incoming enemy. Like said above I wasn't able to hear his position due to reloading and medicing but I've heard him.

Here Devil acknowledges that while he heard the player, he "wasn't able to hear his position."

2. You can locate the enemy nearly pefectly by sound. The shownormals only show that the preshot was too early - if I could have seen him I would have shot a few moments later.
Actually the preshot wasn't helping me because I haven't shot when he appears, I've shot a few moments before. I can't say when he will appear I just can say where he is quietly accurate. Then I have to guess if he will appear or not. I decided to shoot. It's not "noise" that you can't locate - those steps were loud foodsteps that "showed by listening" where the players is.

Here Devil suggests, instead, that he could pinpoint the enemy "nearly perfectly." He indicates "those steps were loud footsteps" which is the case when he spawns, but not right before and after he pre-fires. He says he decides to shoot....into a wall. Devil bases this on crosshair settings and exceptional Urban Terror skills: "In that short demos I've preshoted many times - sometimes with success and sometimes not. Like BanMe said: Why should't I do it if it could help me.."

In this instance, however, pre-firing could not have helped him. It is important to analyze intent of a player. Firing before visual confirmation spreads the crosshair, making it less accurate. How often do you shoot at walls? Why aim at the wall instead of the space beside the wall? And how often when you're screwing around shooting a wall, would shownormals demonstrate a well-timed shot on a player behind the wall, moving into your crosshairs?

We have further been provided with Devil's resume of excellence in Urban Terror and his suggestion that Superman provides him with no real competition other than BanMe. Yet in this engagement he writes, "I needed too long to kill that enemy. 15 bullets for only one enemy in short range are too much.” In regards to his gameplay earlier on Superman: “Before the demo was recorded I had multiple times problems with killing enemies in the air.”


Shownormals indicates unfortunate timing to assume a wallhack. It is insulting to suggest that this evidence is not highly suspicious at least.

As the out-of-sight blue player moves towards Devil's crosshairs (which he has set on the wall) Devil fires twice into the wall. When the blue player finally appears to Devil's sights, Devil jerks his crosshairs away from the player before engaging the player.

What would an experienced player do? Most decent players would aim to the left of the wall, to catch a player at first sight, moving into their crosshairs as they fire. Most of Devil's play agrees with this strategy. In almost every similar instance, he aims for the space where the player will be, not the wall where a player will not be. Had the shed wall been a few inches to the right with the blue player just coming into sight, Devil would have made a keen maneuver.

It has been suggested that Devil was aiming at the wall to hide his laser from the enemy, so as not to give away his position and keep the element of surprise. Even though Devil is not using a laser, this wouldn’t make sense, because aiming at the air where the blue player appeared would not have given his position away, either. There was no wall beyond the shed where a laser point would appear. Pre-firing, however, does give his position away. Before the blue player sees Devil, he hears him shooting at the wall.

Further, if you are aiming at a corner, anticipating an enemy to appear, most players reaction upon first sight is to fire. Devil's first reaction is to move his crosshair left and away from the emerging player before engaging him. This indicates one of two reasons: he knew Crazy was specing him, and he'd just fired into a wall providing evidence of a wallhack (his "don't see my dot correct" further corroborates that); or two, he was surprised at the appearance of the enemy and jerked his mouse, taking credence away from the ability in this instance to follow the enemy's sound "nearly perfectly."

-------------------------
A lot of time is being spent on the shed moment. Does anyone want to bring up some of the other points.

Again, please keep this discussion on the demo.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 01:15PM

" He says he decides to shoot....into a wall"

Try to hit a corner perfectly while you're walking and you'll realize this is pretty hard.
I've preshoted. Not at the wall, i tried to hit the corner (with corner I dont mean the part of the wall - I'm talking about that part in the air)
Due to the moving I failed that preshot for maybe 2 or 3 pixel (I said before: it wasnt that good but the timing was pretty nice" )

After/while preshooting I was going to circle and strafe to that spot I guessed the enemy is but realized he showed up and started aiming.

My crosshair is not set to the wall - it is set to the corner which is much darker than the sky.
Try my crosshairrgb please.

I'm able to hear more than 5 or 6 foodsteps that werent mine - could you please turn your volume up and listen carefully. Those steps show the position of enemy.

On blue roof I wasnt able to locate the enemy by sound because it was just one foodstep and I was busy with medic & reload at the same time.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 01:33PM

Conclusions on the shed incident:

You say there is 1 foodstep.
There are more than 5.

You compare locating somebody with sound while medic and reloading and one foodstep with locating someone with a lot of foodsteps with no other sounds (I dont even listen to that wind)

You say I shot at the wall and tried to hit the wall.
I explained you that I was moving and tried to hit the non-wall part of the corner. And this why I was moving.

You see on that screen that my dot isnt even 2 o3 pixels from the air-part of the corner away:
http://i.imgur.com/qSHgZVA.jpg

You see on all the following screens that im often aiming at edges and corner to see my crosshair. And you can see that I have problems with my dot in the air. Don't get why you're still ignoring my settings. You're repeating me and try to misrepresent my statements even those actions that have been explained with those statements are completely different:
http://imgur.com/iGVjWPq,1oehzK7,5f2mpnS,DcmGFnv,JYjLWrs,BpyftaO,lJuLJP4,TAxAfFe,SKgptOc,wgjieqE,QlSok0A,OfSkiTZ,b3eZBTz,tp0Lf0S,VLlycxV,s1gbiiL,ctXCcI0,ibubDPo,M1aeOTq,O1Y9j14,YeSis4M,6CbQxPa,ToKz1uJ

23 screenshots for you with my crosshairsettings. On screen 7 you also see the laser on roof & on screen 6 you see the first preshot (zoom in and count the pixels - remember i was moving)


Also the video for BoogieKnight in full HD. You can see the dark/black body flying up in the air - it's just the brightness settings.
To the jump you've mentioned. After one jump I realized my stamina wont be enough so I decided to strafe to the arrow. Then I saw the enemy. In timscale .15 you can see that I'm surprised to see the enemy.



I dont remember how I played 7 days ago in a random pub match - I just can say now what I think I've thought at this time.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Sat Apr 20 2013, 01:39PM

You claim, "I wasn't able to hear his position due to reloading and medicing but I've heard him."

You timed the blue player perfectly with his position and prefired into the wall. Without wallhack, you couldn't see him. So you imply you guessed it with sound, but admit you didn't "hear his position."

I agree you can't pinpoint his position. As you move to put your crosshairs on the wall, the blue player is backpedaling against the ledge without moving. He then moves to your left out of sight. He stops. Then he moves left into your sight.

The backpedaling would have created footsteps that you claim you can hear, and yet the blue player wouldn't have been moving at all. Yet you still aimed and fired into the wall at the moment that the blue player reached your crosshairs behind it.

And you think that means nothing? You think that's not suspicious to an outside viewer? You think that this is simply explained away by advanced settings and expert tactics? And you believe only players with advanced settings, cranked-up Bose speakers and league trophies could understand how to view this demo?

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
FSK405|EZ, Sat Apr 20 2013, 01:39PM

I still have questions regarding the shots to both top corners of RED from BLUE roof. The accuracy has Devil written all over it. Shooting scopeless to those points with that accuracy has me doubtfull of no hack assistance. I play with player info in my setup, so I would know immediately if they were friend or foe. I do not believe Devil does the same. The timing of the aim to the shots fired is so quick it still leaves me feeling a radar of sorts must be helping as the accuracy is hard to swallow. There is reasonable argument on Devils part as far as the Blue roof issue goes, but on the other hand why would you give up your position and shoot to the wall until seeing the player. I have spec'd Devil many times and have never witnessed him follow a wall with his DOT and make unnecessary pre fires and risk giving up his position.Based on his arguments thus far I have to assume that he is taking into consideration he feels that the lack of competition allows him that sloppiness. It is clear to me so far that Devil has an explanation for his every move. It is very important that we try to get as many "EXPERIENCED" demo views in order to come to a precise conclusion.
* To Devil.. you are a very respected player in this community. Please remember that we are all working diligently to make sure this process is dealt with professionally and without bias. This is in no way a headhunting expedition. We take all matters of these sorts seriously. Your patience in the matter is appreciated and we thank you for understanding the process. EZ

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 01:40PM

You claim, "I wasn't able to hear his position due to reloading and medicing but I've heard him."

You timed the blue player perfectly with his position and prefired into the wall. Without wallhack, you couldn't see him. So you imply you guessed it with sound, but admit you didn't "hear his position."

I agree you can't pinpoint his position. As you move to put your crosshairs on the wall, the blue player is backpedaling against the ledge without moving. He then moves to your left out of sight. He stops. Then he moves left into your sight.

The backpedaling would have created footsteps that you claim you can hear, and yet the blue player wouldn't have been moving at all. Yet you still aimed and fired into the wall at the moment that the blue player reached your crosshairs behind it.

And you think that means nothing? You think that's not suspicious to an outside viewer? You think that this is simply explained away by advanced settings and expert tactics? And you believe only players with advanced settings, cranked-up Bose speakers and league trophies could understand how to view this demo?

theSheilaDivine

This part "You claim, "I wasn't able to hear his position due to reloading and medicing but I've heard him."" was said for the guys at blue roof. And those preshoots were pretty bad.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Sat Apr 20 2013, 01:45PM

You had indicated previously that your mini-map was close to your crosshairs so you can detect enemies easier:

You wrote, "You always should have an eye on the minimap for grenades, preshots, binds, etc
And ofcourse you have to listen to noise that enemies are doing.
That's what you have to do if you want to play in high divisions.

You can put the minimap in the middle of the display, so it's next to your crosshair. If the minimap is too far away from your crosshair, this would help you."

In the demo you just posted, your minimap is at the default top left.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 01:46PM

I still have questions regarding the shots to both top corners of RED from BLUE roof. The accuracy has Devil written all over it. Shooting scopeless to those points with that accuracy has me doubtfull of no hack assistance. I play with player info in my setup, so I would know immediately if they were friend or foe. I do not believe Devil does the same. The timing of the aim to the shots fired is so quick it still leaves me feeling a radar of sorts must be helping as the accuracy is hard to swallow. There is reasonable argument on Devils part as far as the Blue roof issue goes, but on the other hand why would you give up your position and shoot to the wall until seeing the player. I have spec'd Devil many times and have never witnessed him follow a wall with his DOT and make unnecessary pre fires and risk giving up his position.Based on his arguments thus far I have to assume that he is taking into consideration he feels that the lack of competition allows him that sloppiness. It is clear to me so far that Devil has an explanation for his every move. It is very important that we try to get as many "EXPERIENCED" demo views in order to come to a precise conclusion.
* To Devil.. you are a very respected player in this community. Please remember that we are all working diligently to make sure this process is dealt with professionally and without bias. This is in no way a headhunting expedition. We take all matters of these sorts seriously. Your patience in the matter is appreciated and we thank you for understanding the process. EZ

FSK405|EZ

BanMe already posted a video where he shoots people from same spot in the head easily in a row.
Just try to shot at them, if you're not trying you't have success.
"I play with player info in my setup, so I would know immediately if they were friend or foe. I do not believe Devil does the same."
My playerlist is set that I see all names on the right bottom and they show up if they are friends and im scoping at them.

"* To Devil.. you are a very respected player in this community. Please remember that we are all working diligently to make sure this process is dealt with professionally and without bias. This is in no way a headhunting expedition."

It's the third time sheila posts something with ignoring my settings. What would you think if you try to explain people something and they dont give a fck what you tell them.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Sat Apr 20 2013, 01:46PM

That still doesn't explain how you timed your shot using sound, when the blue player's footsteps were erratic and misleading.

You claim, "I wasn't able to hear his position due to reloading and medicing but I've heard him."

You timed the blue player perfectly with his position and prefired into the wall. Without wallhack, you couldn't see him. So you imply you guessed it with sound, but admit you didn't "hear his position."

I agree you can't pinpoint his position. As you move to put your crosshairs on the wall, the blue player is backpedaling against the ledge without moving. He then moves to your left out of sight. He stops. Then he moves left into your sight.

The backpedaling would have created footsteps that you claim you can hear, and yet the blue player wouldn't have been moving at all. Yet you still aimed and fired into the wall at the moment that the blue player reached your crosshairs behind it.

And you think that means nothing? You think that's not suspicious to an outside viewer? You think that this is simply explained away by advanced settings and expert tactics? And you believe only players with advanced settings, cranked-up Bose speakers and league trophies could understand how to view this demo?

theSheilaDivine

This part "You claim, "I wasn't able to hear his position due to reloading and medicing but I've heard him."" was said for the guys at blue roof. And those preshoots were pretty bad.

DeviL

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 01:47PM

You had indicated previously that your mini-map was close to your crosshairs so you can detect enemies easier:

You wrote, "You always should have an eye on the minimap for grenades, preshots, binds, etc
And ofcourse you have to listen to noise that enemies are doing.
That's what you have to do if you want to play in high divisions.

You can put the minimap in the middle of the display, so it's next to your crosshair. If the minimap is too far away from your crosshair, this would help you."

In the demo you just posted, your minimap is at the default top left.

theSheilaDivine

"You can put the minimap in the middle of the display, so it's next to your crosshair. If the minimap is too far away from your crosshair, this would help you."
It was an advise for sheila. I have no problem with watching at minimap and at the crosshair at nearly the same time.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 01:49PM

That still doesn't explain how you timed your shot using sound, when the blue player's footsteps were erratic and misleading.

You claim, "I wasn't able to hear his position due to reloading and medicing but I've heard him."

You timed the blue player perfectly with his position and prefired into the wall. Without wallhack, you couldn't see him. So you imply you guessed it with sound, but admit you didn't "hear his position."

I agree you can't pinpoint his position. As you move to put your crosshairs on the wall, the blue player is backpedaling against the ledge without moving. He then moves to your left out of sight. He stops. Then he moves left into your sight.

The backpedaling would have created footsteps that you claim you can hear, and yet the blue player wouldn't have been moving at all. Yet you still aimed and fired into the wall at the moment that the blue player reached your crosshairs behind it.

And you think that means nothing? You think that's not suspicious to an outside viewer? You think that this is simply explained away by advanced settings and expert tactics? And you believe only players with advanced settings, cranked-up Bose speakers and league trophies could understand how to view this demo?

theSheilaDivine

This part "You claim, "I wasn't able to hear his position due to reloading and medicing but I've heard him."" was said for the guys at blue roof. And those preshoots were pretty bad.

DeviL

theSheilaDivine

Could you just listen to me once now?
Turn your volume up. Use Headphones and it will sound like the enemy will show up. Thats why I am shooting - I couldn't know that my enemy walks at an edge 30cm away from the corner. I thought he will show up in a few moments. Then I wanted to rush him with one circle and a strafe to his spot because the preshots havent hit. Then he showed up and I have to aim again.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Sat Apr 20 2013, 02:10PM

No, it does not. I am trying to listen to what you're saying. I have blown my ears out a dozen times at normal speed.

You keep insisting that this comes down to your ability to "hear" this player about to come out from behind the wall. That is the core of your argument. I don't need your settings to understand this.

And I am telling you, that the footsteps you hear when you spawn, are of a player moving away from you. Everybody understands this point. We're all on the same page. The sound fades to almost nothing shortly after. It is almost non-existant when you train on the wall, when you prefire and when the blue player appears.

You cannot position his movement with sound when you train on the wall. You cannot position his movement until you see him. And yet you time your pre-fire with his movement behind the wall to perfection.

That makes this instance very lucky or very unfortunate for you. But you refuse to concede either luck or fortune. You keep insisting this shot came about because of your terrific expertise and exceptional hearing.

Every person reading this forum should blast their speakers and share their opinion on this moment: Immediately before Devil prefires, do footsteps indicate the moment the blue player will appear at that corner?

That is my sticking point. I don't hear it. I don't understand why you wouldn't use your spectacular ears in all situations like this. To be able determine the lateral direction of players over 30 paces away would mean you have a sonar-like instinct. This situation is nothing like Kingdom or Casa. In the other demos of you that I've seen, you don't match this behavior.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Sat Apr 20 2013, 02:20PM

The two light footsteps you hear before you line up on the wall, are of the blue player backpedaling into the corner of redroof. His legs are moving, making footsteps, but his body is not moving. At the moment, during his last two footsteps, he is not moving into your line of sight. Those footsteps could not help your timing. If anything, they should have thrown it off. The blue player starts to move. No sound. Then he stops. No sound. You wait. The blue player moves again and as he reaches your crosshairs, you fire.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sat Apr 20 2013, 02:40PM

"I don't need your settings to understand this."
You do.

In this video you see that the the preshot was set when enemy was "far" away from showing up. If I would be able to see him I would fire a few moments later - like I said before.

And you're able to hear more than 7 steps in that part of the demo and 2 right before I shoot. (If you aren't able to hear the second, watch the demo in slower timescale. I wasn't able to hear the second step without headset). The first when he stood in the corner and the second after the second step. If you hear a sound coming from right to the left side, where do you think will the next sound come from in a egoshooter. From left again because you think he is moving in one direction. When the enemy realises that he is getting shot, he walks back and I was surprised he is not showing up, preparing for rushing him and then he shows up.



"You cannot position his movement with sound when you train on the wall. You cannot position his movement until you see him. And yet you time your pre-fire with his movement behind the wall to perfection."

That's not correct. The prefire would be perfect if it would have hit. Like said above there have been two steps that showed a direction of a enemy moving and the next foodstep would happen when I'll see him (if he keeps running in same speed or faster) so I just used my brain and shot.
You're doing one big mistake what happens a lot of people reviewing a demo:
You act on the assumption I would be able to see through walls while you're watching that demo. Watch that demo impartial, listen to the foodsteps and you'll come to the same result, that the enemy will show up in a few moments.

" Those footsteps could not help your timing. If anything, they should have thrown it off. The blue player starts to move. No sound. Then he stops. No sound. You wait. The blue player moves again and as he reaches your crosshairs, you fire. "
Wrong again.
That's the shed (______). "O" is a sound of the foodstep:

"o" - first foodstep
"O" - second foodstep
""O"" - When I'll think the next foodstep will hearable. I was acting on the assumption he is doing one step forward and starts to circle then.

(left) "O"__________O____o_ (right)


But he wasn't doing a circle jump and my calculation failed and I've shot too early:

(left) "O"___I_______O____o_ (right)

"I" is the position of the enemy when I've prefired.
I can't see where the enemy is at this moment, I have to guess. So please view that part of the demo without being prejudiced.


If you don't use a (good) headset you're not able to hear the second step that's isn't as loud as the first. If you are able to hear that step then you locate the first step more right to the second (left) step.


" In the other demos of you that I've seen, you don't match this behavior. "
In the other demos of me I wasn't playing with headset, with highsens and with a bad computer unless they are from the last 5 months.
I've become better with playing in high divisions, edited my settings and stopped playing pub regulary. In the past I've been on server daily and maybe you've realized that this changed in the last months,

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
BanMe, Sat Apr 20 2013, 03:46PM

BanMe...you mention the laser dot, but I only see it visible on the glass sky light. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that it's from an enemy in exec?

Boogie Knight

It's a pretty reasonable argument. The video I posted is in timescale .1 and the laser is visible for 10-12 seconds, so real game time only a second or so. Thats not a lot of time to interpret angles of laser pointers to determine player location. Watching it in real time i only have enough time to go "laser = enemy" in my head not "laser only touching the glass at this certain angle means hes only on roof/in exec so I will/wont shoot." Its certainly possible for a player to think that, it's just not where my mind goes right of the bat.

Devil's first reaction is to move his crosshair left and away from the emerging player before engaging him.

theSheilaDivine

I saw that as a movement to get into a circle jump. You move your aim to the left so when you circle your aim for the jump its back where it needs to be to fire at the enemy.

My Thought process watching it:
Pre-fire at enemy
enemy not there
start to rush at enemy (the circle jump/ aim to left)
enemy appears mid jump, start to fire

Shooting scopeless to those points with that accuracy has me doubtfull of no hack assistance....The timing of the aim to the shots fired is so quick it still leaves me feeling a radar of sorts must be helping as the accuracy is hard to swallow.

FSK405|EZ

I just posted a video of myself doing the same exact thing. I know you said not to talk about settings but its relevant to this particular argument. With any of the following, mouse acceleration, large crosshair (not the dot), high or even medium sensitivity, and/or smaller monitor size, these shots are pretty damn hard to do. I'm actually better at these shots than the more "normal range" ones you do on other areas/maps because ive practiced doing them so much.

Yes there is a little luck with shots that far but in DeviL's demo he only hit three out of twenty-four (12.5 percent) shots taken. In terms of accuracy numbers for autos thats about half of what he probably gets in "normal range" firefights.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
truth, Mon Apr 22 2013, 03:48PM

hello, not sure if this is still going on, I didn't really read past the first page.

I watched the demo and I believe very strongly that he is not hacking.

Take that for whatever it's worth.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Mon Apr 22 2013, 04:10PM

Thanks for your effort reviewing this demo & yes it's still going on.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Sat Apr 27 2013, 11:07PM

Would anyone else like evaluate a moment in the demo or post a final thought?

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
DeviL, Sun Apr 28 2013, 04:15AM

All named scenes have been explained by me/us I think. If there are more questionable scenes feel free to let me know.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Tue Apr 30 2013, 06:52PM

This thread is locked. The LOJ can decide whether they're satisfied enough with the explanations to have another vote. If they do, it will take a majority vote to remove the ban.

Re: Discussion of Devil's demo (playing as patr0n)
theSheilaDivine, Tue May 07 2013, 08:54PM

Based on a revote, the LOJ has unbanned Devil.